Like Sand thru the Hour glass…
-
What it is:
The Emerging Lurch
Current Top Dogs
Recent Comments
persifler on The Heresy of the “Altar… Dennis Asuncion on The Heresy of the “Altar… solaGod on Returning to where I left… Audreymariescadden on Pornography Found On Principal… persifler on Pornography Found On Principal… Blog Stats
- 32,865 hits
What it was
Meta
Persifler's Weblog 
This argument of “pure election” has major flaws: Scripture plainly states that God has no desire for anyone to suffer damnation 2) Jesus’ own words in John 3:16 that explicitly states that the criteria for salvation is “whosoever believes” 3) it ignores God’s constant urging for us to reason together (or “settle the matter”).
In each case God appeals to man. If there was no choice, an appeal would be unnecessary.
Furthermore, this gentleman fails to take into account that God had a criteria for that election. God chose based on some things in mind as making each one fit for the choosing.
Another issue influencing this errant point of view is using our finite understanding to interpret the eternal, especially in the face of biases going into the discussion.
None of us really understands God fully. Very few of us have any inkling what God is really like. I observe that most of us have a very religious view based on words devoid of experience. Just a little study of God’s ways in the OT makes it clear that God tends to do things you and I may think crazy, stupid or a waste of time.
God’s ways are not ours so we must be sober in trying to discern God’s actions, particularly when we’ve received no revelation about a particular matter.
The appeal to unbelievers by this man is proof to his OWN soul that choice on man’s part is part of election. The circular argument that “if you feel the need to call on God then you are one of the elect” makes his argument that much weaker.
Perhaps the word ‘elect’ is best understand in the context of our adoption as sons and daughters of God.
As an aside and on a personal note, the soaring cornball music doesn’t make his message that much more palatable. It was a distraction. It was like he was trying to use ‘pretty’ music and ‘pretty pictures’ to distract from the untruths in his message.
By our sinful nature and by acting upon it we rejected God. By seeing our brokenness and sinfulness before God, we became “eligible”- but elect. Once we believe and seek redemption, we are then elected.
Recognizing our brokenness makes us eligible for salvation. It’s our belief and surrender that causes God to reach out to us and take us in.
I’m sure Mr. Krumpos had no malicious or deceptive intents but dude is not in sync with God’s nature or plan- in its entirety.
Romans 3:10-18, “as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
cf Psalm 14:2-3/53:2-3
Why do we insist on exercising our will over God? On what basis can a person who is spiritually dead before God choose God? How can we who are polluted with sin choose God? Everything we do is so poluted before God that he declares even the very best we can do filthy in his sight. So how can we claim any power over God?
John 15:16-19, “You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17 This I command you, that you love one another. 18 “If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.
cf John 17
Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
Ephesians 1:3-14, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Ephesians 2:1-10 “1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Throughout scripture it is made very clear that Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. He is not subject to anything or anyone. He is not subject to time nor the will of man. He did not merely look down the cooridors of time and react to what he saw his creation choose to do. No, he is the I Am who has actively brought about all events and circumstances so that at the time he purposed, before the world began, he does a work of Grace in the hearts of those whom he chose before the foundation of the world, giving them the very faith necessary to believe. That is powerful. That is Grace. That God does everything regarding salvation. If it is a choice that man makes then how can he ever be sure that he did it correctly? That he was sincere enough? Again how can a creature in it’s sin condition choose God? Even it it were possible it would be sin tainted and unacceptable to God.
Unless God does a work of Grace in the heart how and why would one who is his mortal enemy suddenly choose to switch sides? How could God accept one who is still his enemy as one of his own? How can one who is spiritually dead give himself life enough to make such a spiritual choice? If this were possible then what need is there of Christ and his sacrifice?
No, I’ll hold to the Sovereign work of God because I had no power in myself to choose him. I was dead until he gave me life.
To believe that we don’t influence election is to disbelieve Jesus when he said:
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.” Mat 11:28. To come, you must choose to go when God calls.
He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet….Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. Mat 22:3-4, 8
Anyone who chooses [desires, is willing] to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. Jn 7:17
Jesus said the word that comes is like a seed. The seed takes root and produces fruit – IF the heart is ready to receive it.
“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.” Mat 13 18-23
Matthew 13 is an excellent summary of Jesus’ take on the whole “choosing” issue. Verse 15 settles this issue completely:
“Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and TURN, and I would heal them.”
I choose to believe Jesus.
But you do so by giving man authority and power to thwart God’s will. If man has the ability to choose then his will is made to be greater than God’s. It makes God reactionary to the choice of man and that reduces God to less than man.
Again, how can man choose God when he is still God’s enemy? On what basis can one choose good when they are bound by sin?
Jesus made it clear that he came for “whosoever will”. He extends the invitation to ALL- not some- knowing not all will accept. He knows our time from the beginning to the end and he knows every heart.
Jesus did not discriminate (accept for the Jews first thing; even then he made an exception.). He just threw seed and trusted the soil that was ready would produce. If Jesus was secure in that, so am I.
He doesn’t need to pick because he already knows who will choose. That’s why we don’t need to concern ourselves with his will being thwarted.
The election concept does not take into account that God always extends an invitation. That invitation is not limited to only the elect, as Jesus clearly demonstrated throughout his ministry and in the verses quoted earlier. God’s goal is for as many to come as they will.
Salvation is about surrender – from start to finish.
Man chooses AFTER God reaches – not before. If you look at what Jesus says, salvation is ALWAYS in response to an invitation to come. Hence:
“For I have not come to CALL the righteous, but sinners.” Mat 9:13
“How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.” Rom 10:14-15
“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise… Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.” 2 Pe 3:8-10
God’s work is to save and sanctify. Ours is to accept it and yield to it. It’s the very reason it takes some of us longer to come to Christ or longer to mature. We each have to let go of things before we both come into the kingdom or grow in Christ.
Since salvation comes by invitation, everyone who receives the invitation has the power to accept or reject.
Actualy Salvation is all about Grace, from beginning to end.
For by grace are we saved through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works lest any man should boast, For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. <- It is all God. Not man's will but God.
Again Election and predestination are not God looking down through the corridors of time and reacting to the choices of his creation. Election and predestination are sovereign acts of God according to His will, His plan, His purpose and according to His good pleasure. Anything less is an attempt to take away God's glory and power.
If man chooses God how is God glorified? In that case, one is saying, God is glorified by his creation bestowing honor on him. Yet, what honor does fallen man have to bestow on God? Rather, God is Glorified and honored when he does a work of Grace in a person and gives them life. They have nothing they can boast of and God is given all the Glory and honor for what he has done.
The question raised by the passage in 2 Peter is the same as the one raised in 1 Timothy 2:4 “God will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” I have found Thomas Aquinas answers that very well with his The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas. Prima Pars, The Will of God, Sixth Article. I have posted it here: https://persifler.wordpress.com/2010/11/07/how-to-answer-the-claim-that-1st-timothy-23-4-refers-to-all-men-everywhere-in-all-times/
It really comes down to one’s view of God, and who man is in relation to God. It is aided by how one views the results of sin on creation. The total depravity that is the result of sin is not that one is as morally depraved as possible, but that one is as spiritually depraved as one can ever be. That takes an act of Sovereign election and a gift of Grace to redeem.
I’ve spoken my peace so I will agree to disagree. As long as you are secure in your salvation, that’s most important.
John 6:43-46, 60-65
Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.
When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” *
The “Whosoever will” is not universal, but specifically attributed to those whom the Father draws. Those who are taught by God, in whom he does a work of Grace and gives life to. That takes it completely out of the hands of men and places complete responsibility for salvation on the only one who can Save. This is what the Abrahamic Blood covenant was showing us. Abram could not be a participant because he was not able to make or keep such a covenant, therefore God did everything to establish it. Likewise, we are not able to be co-participants in our own salvation. It is completely established by the work of Christ and then extened to those whom, by faith, the Father draws to his son.
* Emphasis mine